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QUESTIONS FRÉQUEMMENT POSÉES

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1 – Vous dîtes qu’il est impossible de tailler du granite sans outils perfectionnés, or des expériences archéologiques montrent le contraire ?

On ne dit pas que c’est impossible. On peut tailler du granite de diverses manières : par la méthode du clivage, avec des coins de bois qu’on va humidifier pour le faire gonfler, ou avec des coins de cuivres ; par percussion, avec une autre pierre (une boule de dolérite par exemple), qui va écraser des cristaux à chaque percussion, par abrasion avec un produit abrasif (sable riche en quartz ou poudre issue du broyage d’une roche, comme le corindon) ou encore par un sciage “abrasif”, en utilisant du cuivre par exemple, une poudre abrasive et de l’eau. Dans ce cas, la lame ou le fil de cuivre ne scie pas à proprement parler mais entraine les grains abrasifs (quand on fore avec un tube de cuivre, le cuivre s’use davantage que la roche). Ces méthodes fonctionnent parfaitement, et permettent d’obtenir des blocs qui pourront ensuite être abrasés pour présenter des surfaces plus ou moins planes (en fonction de la durée du travail).

Le problème est que ces méthodes ne permettent pas de scier précisément afin d’obtenir un bloc avec les formes, souvent complexes, observées : les assemblages de granite, sans joints entre eux, tels que ceux visibles en Égypte témoignent de la précision d’exécution, car il est impossible de glisser une lame de rasoir entre des blocs pesant parfois plusieurs tonnes ou dizaines de tonnes. Comme les gens de métiers le savent (reportez-vous à l’interview de Jean-Louis Boistel pour en savoir plus), on ne peut pas s’aventurer dans la construction d’un mur composé de blocs aux formes polygonales sans prendre de références précises (un bloc sert de “centre”) ou faire de croquis avec relevés de dimensions et d’angles.

L’assemblage doit d’abord être conçu avant d’être réalisé. La question est donc “Comment fait-on pour obtenir les formes précises nécessaires aux assemblages de granite visibles dans le Temple de la Vallée de Gizeh ?”

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Blocs de parement de granite, Temple de la Vallée, site de Gizeh.

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Assemblages d’angles croisés, Temple de la Vallée, site de Gizeh.

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Cette large dalle présentant un retour d’angle dans le mur perpendiculaire, cela signifie qu’elle a été retaillée sur cette épaisseur après positionnement du bloc

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Ce qu’on voit mieux sur cette illustration, et ce qui rend caduque l’argument de “l’économie de matière” pour la justification des formes polygonales des blocs (on retaillerait le moins possible ce qui sort de la carrière. Voyez les explications du tailleur de pierre chevronné Jean-Louis Boistel à ce sujet

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Blocs d’andésite, Machu Picchu, Pérou

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Faces internes de blocs d’andésite séparés par un séisme, Cuzco, Pérou.

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Mêmes blocs d’andésite, autre angle, Cuzco, Pérou

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Blocs de calcaires, Sacsayhuaman, Pérou

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Coffre de granite du Sérapéum de Saqqarah, Égypte.

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Bloc de granite courbe du Temple de la Vallée de Gizeh, Égypte. Les courbes décrivent précisément des portions de cercles.

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2 – Vous affirmez qu’il est impossible de transporter des blocs tels que ceux qu’on voit en Égypte, mais des expériences montrent pourtant que c’est possible ?

On ne dit pas que c’est impossible, on fait seulement remarquer qu’entre transporter un bloc de quelques tonnes sur une courte distance et des dalles de granite de 70 tonnes, comme certaines qui composent la chambre haute de la grande pyramide, située à 50 mètres au-dessus du sol, très précisément ajustées, il y a une grande différence. La même qu’entre transporter un moaï – les statues de l’île de Pâques – de 5 tonnes en béton sur sol plat et un moaï de 80 tonnes sur le sol escarpé de l’île, pour le positionner précisément sur son socle. La difficulté ne réside pas simplement dans le transport, mais également dans le positionnement (certains moaï sont coiffés de chapeau de tuff volcanique rouge pesant de 4 à 8 tonnes…).

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Un moaï de béton de 5 tonnes tracté sur sol plat et dur

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Un moaï de tuff basaltique de 80 tonnes tracté sur sol escarpé

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Le problème se retrouve également avec les Colosses de Memnon, dans la province de Luxor : deux géants de plus de 1000 tonnes, à nouveau précisément disposés sur leurs socles, qui présentent la particularité d’être très légèrement inclinés afin de créer un effet de perspective.

Ces mêmes problématiques se retrouvent à divers endroits de la planète – nulle part ailleurs comme en Égypte qui bat tous les records – et on peut évidemment envisager “qu’Homo Sapiens étant partout le même sur la planète, au même problème il aboutira à la même solution”. Soit. Mais dans ce cas, doit-on également envisager que ces peuples commenceraient donc par ériger des statues colossales et des murs composés de blocs gigantesques, sans ciment, pour ensuite perdre ces techniques et ne plus être en mesure de le faire durant les décennies ou les siècles qui suivraient ?

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3 – Ayant regardé vos deux documentaires, je me suis rendu compte d’une chose : Vous posez la bonne question (Pourquoi ont-ils fait ça ?), mais j’ai l’impression que vous n’explorez pas beaucoup les pistes de la psyché humaine. Vous y cherchez des fonctions, des héritages (ou des transmissions codées), des reliques d’une civilisation qui pensait différemment, etc… Mais vous abordez assez peu l’Homme comme un artiste. Ce poli magnifique exige certes un niveau avancé de maîtrise technique, mais est-ce forcément pour répondre à un besoin technique complexe ? Et si les hommes avaient fait cela pour la beauté du résultat ? L’art pariétal obsède les hommes depuis des dizaines de milliers d’années, et on a souvent envisagé une utilité technico-culturelle à son développement (communiquer ses rencontres, ses espoirs, conjurer le sort, vénérer l’objet de son désir, etc…), mais on évoque rarement un phénomène simple : l’auto-réalisation par l’art. L’obsession de symétrie parfaite, la brillance, la ressemblance avec des éléments environnants, etc… Toutes ces obsessions ne seraient-elles pas de simples névroses d’artistes ? Et si ces grottes n’étaient que la conséquence d’une mode passagère (dans la région) consistant à faire briller ce que l’on a créé !?

Merci pour ta remarque, qui va me permettre de préciser. Ce n’est pas seulement le poli qui rend Barabar unique, mais l’exigence de précision dans le respect des dimensions… qui n’a rien à voir avec un processus créatif libre d’artiste, qui réaliserait le genre de grottes qu’on voit ailleurs dans l’Inde et dans le monde, ornées de sculptures et décorations diverses. Là c’est brut, simple, géométrique et très précis, sans aucune fioriture.

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Grotte de Vadathika, scannée en 3D : chaque laser détermine un point formant un nuage de points qui assemblés, donnent cette image qui représente donc, avec une précision millimétrique, la forme RÉELLE de la grotte. Observez la paroi de l’entrée, ainsi que la gestion de cette courbe complexe.

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Vues verticales des 5 grottes achevées… dans le granite.

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Appliquée à une statue, ce processus créatif libre donnerait naissance à une pièce, qui, fonction de l’exigence de l’artiste, serait ensuite polie dans ses moindres recoins jusqu’à ce qu’elle soit “parfaite”. Elle le serait à l’oeil, mais le serait-elle nécessairement dans ses dimensions ?
C’est pourtant le cas des statues de Luxor, où les deux étudiées en détail par Chris Dunn montrent une symétrie (sans polissage, avec des surfaces légèrement granuleuses, ce qui interroge en plus sur les outils et méthodes, car une abrasion lente ne permet pas d’obtenir le résultat observé, encore faut-il le pondérer par le travail de l’érosion au cours des siècles). Certains montrent des statues romaines de marbres polies en disant “vous voyez, pas besoin de machines gravitationnelles au laser !”, mais les visages de ces statues sont-ils symétriques comme ceux des statues de Luxor ? L’une fait 20 mètres est en granite et pèse environ 1000 tonnes tandis que l’autre fait moins de 2 mètres, est en marbre et pèse quelques centaines de kilos : on ne parle pas du tout de la même chose, même si les deux sont effectivement des statues.

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“Lost Technologies of Ancient Egypt” de Chris Dunn, non traduit en français.

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Les blocs en H de Puma Punku ne ressemblent pas à un “délire” d’artiste, mais bien plus à la production de pièces pensées par un ou des ingénieurs, cotées sur plans et réalisées conformément au cahier des charges, puisque les dimensions se répètent d’un bloc à l’autre, avec un écart maximum d’un millimètre : ce qui avait fait dire à Érik Gonthier, après qu’il nous ait sorti la lamelle de cuivre et l’abrasif en première instance, que cela ressemblait à une “production en série”. Ajoutons à cela la présence du mètre (hauteur et longueur des blocs en H), des dimensions tombant sur des nombres entiers de centimètres (30, 22…) et le mystère s’épaissit : un artiste laissant librement aller son imagination réaliserait une dizaine voire davantage de blocs en H de la sorte ?

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Blocs en H calibrés dans l’andésite

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Ces mêmes blocs mesurés par les archéologues Stubel et Uhle il y a près de 130 ans : personne n’avait prêté attention à la présence du mètre en hauteur et en longueur…

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En Égypte, les réalisations attribuées aux premières dynasties ont cette même austérité géométrique (pyramides de Gizeh et de Saqqarah, Temple de la Vallée, Osiréion, Sérapéum, etc) et tu serais certainement étonné de découvrir à quel point les piliers de granites de plusieurs dizaines de tonnes sont si précisément posés les uns par rapport aux autres, télémètres à l’appui (ceci ne figure pas dans le film mais dans le livre BAM). La chambre haute, encore de granite, est somme toute très austère pour une destination royale : ni hiéroglyphes, ni statues… nulle part dans la pyramide. En lieu et place, des formes géométriques simples produisant des volumes complexes… ce que l’on retrouve à Barabar.
Je ne cherche pas absolument des fonctions ou transmissions codées, mais c’est justement parce que la pensée apparait différente et les réalisations énigmatiques et précises qu’elle m’interroge autant. Un amateur d’art reconnaitra un style entre mille et c’est exactement ce qu’on ressent avec ces réalisations présentées dans BAM : la même pensée semble être à l’oeuvre derrière. Prenons la grande pyramide. Le périmètre du sol de la chambre haute vaut 10 x Pi en mètres ; petit côté + 2,618 m = diagonale du rectangle vertical. Cette diagonale + 2,618 m = grand côté, etc. (fais une pause exactement ici).

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Chambre haute de la grande pyramide, de 20 coudées royales par 10. Le périmètre vaut 10 x Pi en mètre.

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Suite dans les mesures, auxquelles on ajoute 2,618, le Nombre d’or au carré, en mètre !

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Granite travaillé avec facilité, géométrie austère précise : on retrouve cela avec surprise à Barabar, où Sudama, la plus remarquable de toutes les grottes, possède un dôme de 6 m de diamètre (au sol puisqu’il s’agit d’un cône tronqué), et que la portion de sphère qui le surplombe mesure 3 m de rayon et son centre se trouve à 1 m au dessus du sol… Regarde à nouveau les formes de ces grottes en détail, et plus particulièrement Sudama, observe la complexité de l’arrondi de la salle suivant précisément la paroi de celui du dôme, sachant que ceci est creusé dans un volume compact et dur et non assemblé : quelque chose ne te saute pas aux yeux ? Observe la lèvre qui surplombe l’entrée et note la complexité de sa forme globale en faisant pause sur le scan 3D, observe les parois latérales de part et d’autre des ouvertures, précisément dans le même plan (idem, fais des pauses dans les scan 3D animés pour le voir encore mieux) : penses-tu vraiment qu’un artiste libre puisse reproduire ça dans de telles conditions sans relevés précis et outils de vérification ? Est-ce seulement possible ? Si tel est le cas selon toi, c’est alors à classer dans la catégorie “objets uniques miraculeux” car personne en Inde n’a ultérieurement, dans tous les siècles suivants, approché un tel résultat, et pourtant, les Indiens sont experts en matière de taille de pierre. Même cas de figure avec l’Ahu Vinapu de l’île de Pâques, jamais plus égalé… il va bien falloir un jour expliquer ce paradoxe du “plus ancien le plus massif et précis”.
Si l’inspiration transforme un artiste en ingénieur de précision, alors il convient d’explorer profondément la nature de cette inspiration et sa mise en oeuvre, car elle révèle un potentiel insoupçonné de l’Humain. Mais selon toute vraisemblance, si on se donne autant de mal pour être aussi précis, c’est qu’on a les moyens de cette précision et qu’on a besoin de cette précision.
Ces grottes sont uniques et doivent logiquement et rationnellement avoir une fonction, mais si personne n’investigue, on ne le saura jamais.

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3 – les fameuses mesures prises dans les grottes sont une belle arnaque. Les pics de résonance à 200Hz n’existent pas, il suffit de bien regarder les courbes.

Passons la formulation, un peu trop péremptoire, servant juste à faire croire que BAM mentirait. Dans le film, c’est une superposition de tous les relevés qui a été effectuée, et seule la partie du dessus, avec les bâtonnets, a été conservée… voici les impressions d’écran des résultats obtenus pour la grotte Karan Chopar, avec le logiciel DBTrait : le pas de 24,5 Hz n’est pas assez précis, et le sonomètre également, raison pour laquelle nous allons y retourner avec des experts en la matière et du matériel plus performant :

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Nota : cette suspicion de triche ou de manipulation est très peu constructive, car nous livrons ce que nous trouvons en disant bien qu’il faut pousser davantage les investigations… et aussi parce que tout le monde peut se tromper, l’égyptologie la première, elle qui a considérablement varié dans ses hypothèses (plus souvent présentées comme des affirmations) !

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4 – J’ai essayé d’être attentif à tout ce qui a été dit dans BAM. Un argument récurent et pourtant fondateur de cette théorie d’une civilisation avancée perdue prend comme base l’observation d’une dégénérescence architecturale observée de façon globale à la surface de la terre. Elle démontre par la superposition de deux type architecturaux prétendument opposés que sont l’emploi de gros blocs (cyclopéens) très précisément réalisés et ajustés à ceux plus “primitifs” fait de petits blocs… Ces choix architecturaux, car il s’agit selon moi de choix et non pas de dégénérescence se retrouvent très précisément dans deux civilisations successives pourtant extrêmement proches à tous égards : Grecs et Romains de l’antiquité. Si les premiers ont tout bâti en blocs massifs ajustés les second ont même dépassé leurs prédécesseurs par l’emploi de petits moellons, de briques ou de mortier…
Diriez vous que le Colisée est une dégénérescence architecturale ? J’ai un peu du mal à suivre votre argumentaire sur ce sujet. Tout cela pour dire que tirer des conclusion de la seule observation, si précisé soit elle sans prêt ndre en compte la civilisation à laquelle elle appartient et aux ressources économiques dont elle dispose à ce moment risque d’induire en erreur quant aux conclusions qu’on en tire, ou aux questions que l’on se pose. Quand aux prétendues impossibilités de travailler précisément avec des outils simples, vous niez tout ce que le génie humain a démontré depuis les millénaires de son évolution… Les bâtisseurs de cathédrale gothique ont bien sculpté chaque bloc avec un marteau et un burin il me semble… Et c’est parfaitement documenté… Praxitele a bien sculpté et poli miroir des statues en marbre sans machine pour l’aider… Non ?
J’aimerais beaucoup en savoir plus sur le site turc qui me semble la partie la plus étonnante et la plus intéressante du film. Il pose effectivement la question de l’ancienneté de la sédentarisation et du phénomène de néolithisation de l’homme. Cela enrichit notre connaissance et l’inscrit dans la continuité de l’évolution de l’homme chasseur cueilleur du mésolithique. A ceci près qu’on recule la date de cette transition…

Concernant la première remarque, ce n’est pas exactement ce qui est montré. On parle de constructions beaucoup plus massives et techniquement beaucoup plus difficiles, auxquelles vont succéder des constructions « primitives » en regard : on ne dépasse pas, on ne progresse pas, au contraire on régresse. Il ne s’agit pas de la taille ou du poids des blocs mais du fait qu’après ils ne font pas mieux, mais moins bien et que cette « constante » de décalage entre le plus ancien et le plus récent se retrouve sur différents sites anciens majeurs du passé. Ce n’est pas moi qui le dit, mais les gens de métier (tailleurs de pierre) et ainsi l’exemple du Colisée n’est pas adapté.

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Avant : les blocs massifs à droite. Après : la réparation en haut à gauche… sans commentaires.

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On commence par du cyclopéen mais surtout par des assemblages polygonaux (justifiés par la thèse de « l’économie de matière » qui ne résiste pas à l’observation), qui se retrouvent à d’autres endroits de la planète, pris dans une même chronologie, c’est à dire d’abord plus compliqué et très précisément réalisé pour finir par du moins compliqué et plus grossier avec perte évidente de savoirs.
Mon approche est technique et non historique, car tout le monde sait qu’on ne peut accorder une confiance aveugle à l’Histoire. Ne sommes-t-on pas maintenant en train de réhabiliter les celtes (ex gaulois), victimes jusqu’à un temps très proche de la propagande romaine ? Là on parle de peuples (Incas) dont on dispose de nettement moins d’archives et sur lesquels aucun consensus ne règne…
Ce constat seul ne sert aucunement à tirer de conclusion, car il n’y en a pas de donnée par BAM.
« Quand aux prétendues impossibilités de travailler précisément avec des outils simples, vous niez tout ce que le génie humain a démontré depuis les millénaires de son évolution… Les batisseurs de cathédrale gothique ont bien sculpté chaque bloc avec un marteau et un burin il me semble… Et c’est parfaitelent documenté… Praxitele a bien sculpté et poli miroir des statues en marbre sans machine pour l’aider… Non ? » : BAM dit-il ceci de la manière dont tu le formules ? Il est très important de ne pas avoir de préjugés lorsqu’on aborde ce genre de problématique : BAM ne dit pas cela, mais s’interroge sur L’EXIGENCE DE PRÉCISION relevée par nous, mais négligée ou méconnue par certains archéologues plus historiques que techniques dans leur approche, et pour lesquels les grottes de Barabar par exemple, ne seraient que de banales grottes, alors qu’elles sont en réalité exceptionnelles techniquement (ce que nous allons nous efforcer de démontrer).
Croire que le temps, allié à la croyance de travailler pour un Dieu, résout tout n’est… qu’une croyance. Tu peux polir miroir sans être plan et c’est lorsque tu observes les deux ensemble que tu commences à t’interroger sérieusement sur les techniques employées, il ne faut pas tout confondre, mais pour cela il faut avoir de solides connaissances en matière de taille de roches, et en particulier du granite.
Alors que BAM honore ce génie humain, il est assez étonnant de lire « vous niez tout ce que le génie humain a démontré depuis les millénaires de son évolution », opinion qui n’a, désolé de te le dire, du fait de sa nature, absolument rien de scientifique.
Concernant Gobekli Tepe, enfin, oui ce site vaut le détour, pas simplement pour le recul de la sédentarisation à la fin du Dryas Récent…

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5 – Votre équateur incliné, c’est du flan car vous ne choisissez que les sites qui vous arrangent, en laissant de côté tout un tas d’autres pourtant importants !

On entend souvent cette critique… des précisions ici

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